Marisa Flórez, the great photographer of the Transition: "I only censored myself during 11-M"

When Marisa Flórez (León, 1948) pointed her lens, the Transition happened . She was everywhere you had to be while working for El País , and if we have an image of this political and social period today, it's largely because—along with other great photographers of the time—she was there. She was there when Susana Estrada stuck her chest out in front of Enrique Tierno Galván— "I've grown fond of that photo"—she was there when Suárez was left alone among the seats in the chamber; she was there when Guernica He returned to Spain, he was there when La Pasionaria and Rafael Alberti entered the Cortes together, he was there when women demonstrated for abortion, he was there when politicians of different colors laughed together and even touched each other on the arm.

All these images can be seen starting today in the exhibition A Time to Look (1970-2020) , which brings together a total of 184 works on different media, at the Canal de Isabel II Gallery. This isn't the first time that a large-scale exhibition of his work has been held, but it is, he says, the one that has come "at a more serene time, with time to look at the archive. Perhaps it helps me to see a type of images that, at first glance, no one thinks about... It's true that there are certain images through which I may have been better known and that always haunt you and it seems that you've done nothing else but that in life, but here are some that have not been published and that I really like." And he has shown them to us. Both the legendary ones and the most unpublished.

QUESTION: Let's start with a mythical image: the arrival of Guernica in Spain with the Civil Guard.

ANSWER. It's the arrival of the last exile, Guernica , and there are images from Barajas Airport until it arrived at the Casón del Buen Retiro, traveling through the streets of Madrid, its installation, the atmosphere in the airport, and the legendary image of the Civil Guard guarding a painting in a museum. It says a lot about the country we were and the one we had been.

P. Then we see the photos dedicated to the world of culture…with the famous photo of the PCE rally with Juan Diego, Rosa León, Ana Belén…

A. Here's a quote from Daniel Canogar that says that all art is potentially political, all art exists in a medium, and that medium is political; art is a fact that influences society. That day of the rally, it was raining... I carried it on the shoulders of a colleague. Here's Oriana Fallaci when we went to visit the last of Franco's executed victims. She came to do a report on one of those who was ultimately saved because she was nine months pregnant. And she came to bring her money from an organization for prisoners. And well, she stayed, and we were doing that report on the graves where the executed were. She was a woman of character, very interesting. I was very young, and for me, being with her was... imagine.

Here's Chavela Vargas at the Residencia de Estudiantes, more or less, after all her drunkenness. She got sober and came back and started singing with Almodóvar... and here she is... Annie Leibovitz .

Q. Was it difficult for you being with Leibovitz?

A. No, no, no. She was lovely , lovely. She came to an exhibition, and we spent a whole morning with her in a sort of stadium. We looked for a place that would provide a backdrop.

"I've always gone for what I wanted to do. Sometimes I succeed and sometimes I don't, but it's true that I was very clear about what I wanted."

P. We continue walking and see Miguel Bosé and Charo López - "very handsome," says Flórez -, Buñuel, Berlanga and Bardem, Almodóvar, María Barranco, Carmen Maura and Rosi de Palma on the set of Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown...

A. I'm very passionate about cinema . My grandmother loved it, and we used to go to the movies… I was four or five years old. And it was a way of educating myself, of seeing, of observing.

Q. You've photographed many cultural figures, politicians, and powerful people... Does that change the way you treat them?

A. No, no, I don't think the profession differentiates the character. Rather, it's their personality, their way of behaving. I've always had a pretty good relationship. Generally speaking, I've always tried to keep my distance. Know where one stands and where the other stands. I've always gone out to do what I wanted to do. Sometimes I succeed and sometimes I don't, but it's true that I was very clear about what I wanted. Because at some point they would tell you, hey, look, I'd like to... But no, when I'm going to do something, I prepare it, I try, then that photo comes out... you're either lucky or not. Sometimes I haven't been able to do what I wanted.

Q. And then misfortunes happen, like those rolls of film that were left in Congress during the coup d'état and were never heard from again. Those photos are now in an exhibition like this...

A. Never, never, never. I tried to get them back several times. Maybe through the Civil Guard… Nothing was ever found out. It would have been very interesting, over time, to have all the film footage from all my colleagues because each one would have seen it differently; it would have been so interesting… Thank goodness Manuel Barriopedro and Manuel de León were there, they were real lions and got them out.

P. We went down a floor and found out about the things that were happening in those years, like the woman also becoming a Civil Guard.

A. Yes, women really began to be part of society in all spheres. So, it seemed right to me to bring together these two images, which are very powerful: that of the Civil Guards and that of Maya Plisetskaya with the St. Petersburg Ballet. And then here we have Antonio López, Mother Teresa, Carmen Díez de Rivera, the muse of Transition, Montserrat Caballé , Cristina Hoyos, the Duchess of Alba with her daughter, Lola Herrera...

Q. You're talking about the Transition. You were involved in everything. In those years, did you know we were at a historic moment?

A. No, no. You were living in a time that you knew was something new. The behavior, the ways of doing things, the way of even reaching the reader, the way politicians conducted politics. Everyone was trying something new. But when it came to working, you didn't think, 'We're going through the Transition .' Not at all. What you were trying to do was, 'I'm going to take the best photo so it can be on the front page tomorrow.'

"When it comes to work, you don't think about it, we're going through the Transition. Not at all. What you were trying to do was 'I'm going to take the best photo.'"

P. Here we move on to some unusual portraits. Very famous people in… tremendous moments.

A. Yes, it's not your typical interview portrait. We have Ruiz-Mateos the day they took Rumasa from him . Mario Conde the day he left the bank and it was all over. Javier Rupérez the day ETA freed him. Luis Roldán the day he resigned from the Civil Guard and then fled to the South Seas. Baron Thyssen at his house in La Moraleja. Caro Baroja... The arrival of Arafat. They had to maintain a distance and there were military personnel. Then Fidel Castro at the Royal Palace; imagine the contrast...

Q. We have the demonstrations. The abortion ones are impressive.

A. Yes, Cristina Almeida appears. And then the women, when the police arrived, were put in the vans and taken to the police station. And there's a very curious photo that I really like, but it's not very well-known. It's from 1977, and there are two very old men in their house with their fists raised, but inside their house. That was fear. They're old people; there was a demonstration downstairs, and they were eager to go, but they were afraid... Those people had seen things. It's a photo that hasn't been published much, but I have it as something that truly represents what life was like here during that time... It's tough.

Q. We come to the photos of the prisons. Those of Carabanchel and the Yeserías women's prison.

A. Look at the lack of privacy, nothing at all. It was terrible. Those with babies could have their own room and there was a little more dignity, but then... In Carabanchel, I found that one of the galleries had been completely burned. I approached the door and at that moment I saw a face looking at me. I went back and saw that face of someone truly desperate, but at the same time as if asking, what do you want? And I said, well, there's the photo... And then I didn't want to show too much blood, but here's the one from the Sáenz de Ynestrillas attack...

Q: This photo is tough. As a photo editor, you've had to work with a lot of photos and see a lot of photos. What's the limit between what's publishable and what isn't?

A. Respecting people's dignity is fundamental. That doesn't mean a war isn't a war. But respect, above all, is for the dignity of the person, and especially because those people have families. That happened to us, for example, with 11-M. It caught everyone off guard, and I, for my part, with the director's permission, applied a certain amount of self-censorship because there were unpublishable photos. They showed us many photographs of what happened inside the trains, and it really wasn't possible. They didn't contribute anything. It was morbid.

Q. We come to the part of parliamentary life that opens with La Pasionaria and Rafael Alberti… It is very impressive.

A. They were imposing because they were two truly imposing figures. But look at the light. Their own colleagues looked at them as if to say... 'What's this? Look who's coming down this way.' This was the first day of democratic courts . And these two gentlemen, until very recently... were the losers. Many were amazed. But it was also then that a relationship of tolerance and dialogue began.

P. It doesn't seem like it now.

A. They are different eras, but it is true that I believe that there was a moment in which the political class behaved itself.

Q. We see Suárez and González lighting each other's cigarettes... That naturalness in the images is also missing. Now they're all so carefully calculated.

A. Yes, yes, that's changed a lot. Now they tell me that it's quite difficult to work on many things. And that photo, well, for the moment, it's no longer politically correct to smoke, so I don't know if it could be published.

Q. We see the famous photo of Suárez alone in Congress, and many others from parliamentary life during those years of the Transition. Few women, huh?

A. Very few. There were very few of us anywhere. Sitting, standing, and working. Very few, yes.

"Respecting people's dignity is fundamental; it's the limit for publishing a photo."

P. The Atocha lawyers' experiences are also tough. That was a very terrible night, according to what I've read about you on other occasions.

R. It was perhaps one of the nights I've been somewhat scared at work. That night, there was talk that there might be people out there looking for... It was a tough environment. Eight people had just been killed.

Q. You have the photos of the presidents... What was Adolfo Suárez like when he was photographed?

A. As you see it. Polite, forward-thinking... [We stop in front of a photo of Felipe González holding Calvo Sotelo's arm and laughing.] Look, do you see Feijoó now holding Pedro's arm and laughing? What I've never liked is officialdom. I like to go further, trying to give a more intimate, more personal image...

Q. What was Felipe like with photos?

R. He didn't like them very much.

Q. And Aznar?

R. Good, good.

P. You also have those of Zapatero and Rajoy.

A. Yes, I did this one about Zapatero in 2008, when everything fell apart, the terrible crisis, and I was waiting in the office for an interview when he walked over that crack in the sidewalk and I said, there's the photo. It was a bit like that psychological photo you get sometimes... And then with Rajoy, it was also good.

Q. We go down to the top floor or the first floor, depending on where the exhibition begins. The first floor is very mysterious. What were you all listening to up there?

A. This was at the Hotel Convención. It was a UCD meeting. It was a time when Suárez was having a tough time. There was an internal war. And the journalists, since they couldn't get in, were standing in the cracks in the door trying to hear something. And I came in through the door and thought, I'm not going anywhere here. But suddenly I see them all like that. And I said, I'll stay here because that's the photo.

Q. You made portraits of a bullfighter like José Tomás who didn't look like a bullfighter.

A. Yes, I didn't want the typical bullfight. Everyone knows José Tomás dressed as a bullfighter. I looked for something else. [We zoom in on one by Cayetano Rivera Ordoñez] This is in the bullring. And before he goes out, he takes his montera, puts it on, closes his eyes, and in the end, what he sees in front of him is the ring. It's as if he were saying, well, the moment of truth has arrived.

"It's 1977, and there are two very old men in their house with their fists raised, but inside their house. That was the fear."

P. And we find the photo of Lola Flores.

R. This is the photo of the small pesetilla. Spaniards, if you all give me a small pesetilla , I'll settle the debt [with the Treasury] -

Q. And this kiss from José Coronado to Isabel Pantoja?

A. I've never published this photo. Not for no reason, but because it hasn't surfaced. I took it, but then... This wasn't from the shoot. There was something there. They said it later. There was an affair .

"Do you see a photo of Feijoó holding Pedro's arm and laughing?"

P. And we move forward and see the police on Gran Vía, staring at some young protesters. Now, democracy.

R. And they didn't know whether to hit them or stay where they were. They were in a democracy , but they said, "What do I do with them?" At another time, they would have beaten them with a truncheon. And then the young people [they are sitting on a bench flipping through newspapers] today would be carrying a cell phone. The photos are a bit documentary-like, too.

Q. Finally, what will happen with photos and AI? And our ability to differentiate between real and fake photos?

A. I believe that for a good image, there always has to be someone behind the camera. With artificial intelligence, fantastic, fabulous things will be achieved. But I still believe that intelligence... [and points to his head]. The proof is that there are people who capture images, take photographs, and produce reports that are truly worthy of the utmost respect. But yes, the way we work is becoming increasingly difficult.